However, I stopped on page 46 at the article titled:
Totally Fit: Devotees of an intense new training regimen say you don't need long runs to train for distance running - By Selene Yeager
This article is all about CrossFit Endurance (CFE) and how it can replace your normal running routine. If you are asking what CrossFit Endurance is click here to read more. Here is the description from Ms. Yeager from the article:
"...CrossFit Endurance (CFE), a high-intensity, low-volume training plan that blends CrossFit conditioning (i.e., heavy, explosive strength training) with sprints, time trials and tempo workouts. Goodbye, long runs. CFE reduces mileage to as much as one-quarter the average of a typical marathon program."
That sounds glorious! Sign me up ...
Now I am very aware of what CF and CFE are and actually think they are very solid programs for maintaining a fit and balanced lifestyle. In fact, before I became an endurance athlete, I was very involved with P90X and High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) workouts which encompass many of the same principles of CF. These types of workouts made me very fit and I looked better with my shirt off doing these workouts then I do now. I will make that concession right now - CrossFit makes you more buff than running!
You know what these workouts did not do? Make me a better long distance runner.
Maybe I am old school or maybe I am just skeptical of snake oil? I believe it takes more then 6mins to get ripped up abs and have experienced first-hand how increased volume can lead to increased performance. CFE takes the principle of Specificity and stands it on its head. They say get stronger and get faster by not running all that much - this is just plain wrong.
Am I suggesting that weight training has no benefits to runners? Absolutely not.
What I am suggesting is that if you have 8hrs a week to train for a marathon that time would be much more beneficial if used for running as opposed to dead lifting empty beer kegs. The principles of CFE disagree with this according to the last line of the above citation, "Goodbye, long runs. CFE reduces mileage to as much as one-quarter the average of a typical marathon program."
Now to give Ms. Yeager credit, this is not a complete fluff piece. Aside from looking for advice on the RW Forum, she does go the extra step and interview a CFE enthusiast (James Herrera) who slightly contradicts the opening of the CFE article with this statement:
"I'm a firm believer in HIIT, but I still feel a runner - especially a new runner - has to cover about 75 percent of the distance in training for a marathon to prepare for those elements."
Okay, now that I have given my thoughts on CFE I want to talk about what stood out to me that wasn't in the article: Race Results from those training exclusively using CFE.
Usually when we are being sold a new "kind" of training/regimen/product we always are shown the successes. Maybe this got cut from the RW article? Maybe the writer chose to just focus on the idea and left out the results?
Or maybe these impressive race results just do not exist?
I did some searching online and over the CFE website and found a couple of CFE blogs and nothing was really impressive in terms of race times. I hate to sound like an elitist but I found a couple of 4+hr marathons and 6+hr 50ks but nothing considered fast. I am not trying to downplay the success of those who accomplished these races but would really like to see some proof from the CFE camp that this type of training does work.
So I guess my question is if CFE is so wonderful then why are the results not being pimped all over the internet? Why can I not find any pro runners or triathletes who are preaching CFE? Was Chuck Norris unavailable for the infomercial?
So tell me, what are your thoughts on CFE? Have you tried it and do you believe it can replace traditional marathon training like suggested in the article? And Mr. CF cult member, please show me some fast results.
Thanks for Reading,
Jeff
If I wanted to do pure strength training, I would look into CFE. It looks quite appealing in what it has to offer, but it needs to stop there when CFE starts blending with endurance sports. You wanna ride long and be successful? Than ride long.
ReplyDeleteThere is the whole "work" formula of work = volume * intensity, meaning that you can go super hard for short periods and essentially create the same amount of "work" had you instead gone longer but at low intensity. I think for a sprint distance triathlete, this works, but us long course triathletes, GO LONG BABY!
I should also add that I would do CFE for pure strength to limit future injuries.
Finally, why is there such a beef with CFE athletes vs triathletes? I could care less, but they see us as the anti-christ! CFE is an apple, and triathlon is an orange. Two VERY different things!
Rant, OVER!
Wait to you see what they say to do on the bike, 21 mins in the saddle wont get it done for a 70.3 or further
ReplyDeletevery interesting post - i did crossfit a few years ago - and it definitely did NOT make me a better long distance runner. the diehard crossfit folks there definitely looked down upon triathletes and marathoners. quite sad.
ReplyDeleteperhaps pro triathletes do not do CFE because um, it doesnt work? that, or maybe they are so sore from the damn 10 minute workouts that they cant get on their bikes for 8 hours? am really interested in hearing the comments you get.
Thanks for this post! First of all I think CF & CFE is good for a lot of people(it's just not for me) and helps people look at their eating habits and do strength training. I think people that would never consider lifting are now doing so through CF - so that's great.
ReplyDeleteBUT I totally can't stand the mantra of "CF is the ONLY answer". Sorry - I don't buy it. I an a new runner(been running for 4 months) but I am endurance mtn biker. The gym I go to The Alpine Training Center in Boulder, CO make the CF workouts look like kids play and it all about getting you ready to play hard outside and not get ready for the "CF Olympics"
I wouldn't be so annoyed with CF if they weren't so militant in their righteousness.
Jon summed it up nicely. I know quite a few CF guys and they all 100% believe I would be a better runner and triathlete if I did the workouts they did. This despite the fact that I can smoke each and everyone of them at any race?
ReplyDeleteCF has it's place, I just do not understand why they think it is in the world of endurance sports?
BRG - "I wouldn't be so annoyed with CF if they weren't so militant in their righteousness."
ReplyDeleteYou should have written my post (-:
My feelings exactly. The RW article was just the final push.
ha, jeff, laughing at your comment - this made me remember one time i was running a half-marathon...now, i am not a fast runner by any means, and just broke 2 hours like last year. but i passed a guy and a girl wearing crossfit shirts. while they could benchpress me, do pushups with me on their back, or do 1,000 burpees to my 1, they certainly were not going to beat me in an endurance race!
ReplyDeleteI saw this and was just as skeptical. Running long is so mental - even if I was strong or fit enough to run long, how do you train for the mental stregth necessary to run long without actually doing it?
ReplyDeleteI don't buy it.
Cross Fit can stand on its own as an excellent, balanced fitness system. However, as a replacement for long runs for those training for long course races... I DON'T THINK SO!!!
ReplyDeleteThank you for posting this. I thought the exact same thing when I read the article.. How in the world can you run only 1/4 of the mileage and do a great marathon? No way!
ReplyDeleteMiles in, miles out. It is as simple as that. There is no magic bullet. No single magic workout. It is hard work (and lots of it) that is going to make you a better swimmer/cyclist/runner/etc.
ReplyDeleteIs CrossFit good for you? I'm sure it is - just like any exercise is good for you. But, I'm with you. Don't try and sell me some BS that I can do CFE instead of running and yet become a better runner.
Maybe it is true through and we are doing something wrong with Adv Marathoning. Here we are 4x-ing our mileage instead of 1/4th-ing it. haha
It works.
ReplyDeleteYou can see variations of it 'work' at marathons all over.
I'm being cynical here, but lets face it - all those overweight soccer moms and walkers that took over marathons years ago are evidence that your average couch potatoe can complete a marathon. Notice I didn't say RUN a marathon. We all know they end up injured or walking, and are not doing themselves any favours.
People want the fast food, instant-gratification, pill popping solution to their obesity issue. So what is better than to sell them on 'do a fraction of the work for the same results!'. Sounds like a marketing company that knows what people want to hear.
Nothing will ever beat SPORT SPECIFIC training.
Cross-Fit has NEVER produced a Triathlon champion or remotely close.
If you want to be good at cross fit, then do cross fit(it can make you overall-fit). If you want to be a capable runner, then run.
While we're on it - replace crossfit with yoga etc. Yoga will not make you faster, but it will make you fitter. You might have gone faster doing yoga but Correlation does not equal Causation.
oh and since alot of people here believe in Yoga, I would like to also point out the obvious:
ReplyDeleteYoga makes you more overal fit and can be great for you, but they dont go around boasting that they are a direct substitution for sport specific training. Yoga and others compliment your already existing training.
CF marketing is at fault here. I would like to think they are not helping themselves by making false claims, but who cares - they make a ton of money probably because people WANT to believe it. Besides, most don't stick around long enough to find out anyways. See Gym Memberships and lack of attendance lol
Same thing.
I need to read the article but have had conversations with a CF owner and it drove me nuts to hear the underlying statement of 'I'm right and you're wrong'
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but I weigh 145 lbs and run a 3:31 marathon and I don't see how throwing a 9000lb tire across a field is going to make me run faster.
As you know I believe in strength training but I use it to keep my body strong enough to avoid injury from overuse during swim/bike/run. I'm also nearing 40 and I need to keep my body always thinking so that it can get stronger and that is where the strength training comes in.
I have a finite # of hours to train and you will see me in a yoga class before you see me box jumping.
The notion that one size fits all is also so wrong. There are guidelines to live by but not a flat out 'this is the only way to do it'
And lastly......Ryan Hall doesn't look like he is doing CF and yet he is the fastest male American. Call me crazy but if I want to be fast at the marathon that is the body I want to have and not Hulk Hogan's.
Been similarly skeptical. As much as I'd like to bag the long run for my spring marathon training in exchange for CF, I'm just not comfortable running 26.2 with a 10mi long run.
ReplyDeleteI've traded the junk miles for CF, but keeping the speedwork/tempo/long runs.
We'll see how it goes.
No reason for either camp to go all elitist for sure. Good post.
I ran some respectably fast 5k and 10k races training exclusively with wieghts and competitive racquetball (very explosive movements) circa 2003 - 2004, about the same paces I hold now. I cannot speak to results for true endurance events but suspect they pale compared to aerobic only training.
ReplyDeleteI browsed through the crossfit endurance link and found the content and testimonials to be quite reasonable. It seems to attract folks with injury history or limited time who prioritize muscle mass over endurance prowess. They are able to compete in the endurance events they love with much less committment. No where did it say times would be faster but claims were made to being in a better balanced state of overall fitness. Of note the testimonials came from people with a base, not new to endurance sports.
I am currently doing a lot of Jiu Jitsu to add muscle and training for a 50k by doing long runs and recovery runs. Because I want to keep speed I have been doing some tempo work. Balancing long aerobic workouts and short high intensity efforts is my biggest concern. I feel too much in either direction is not desirable, but then again we all have different goals and means of acheiving them.
I look forward to reading the article when it comes in the mail. A lot of journalists have a way of representing things in a light that does not accurately capture something and the nuances involved. I do dislkie militant righteousness mentioned earlier but such does not discredit 100% of an idea.
Hi Jeff~
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that you bring this up because early this week I was torn between taking up CF after going in for a class and spending $120/month. My biggest issue with committing was whether this would help or hurt my endurance training. I love strong but, I want fast and I knew my times wouldn't improve with this kind of training in place of swimming, biking or running. At the end of the day, I realized that I'm and endurance athlete and the amount of strength I incorporate each week already, is enough to help me prevent injury and keep me strong year round. So I recommend CF for people whose intentions are focused on weight lose and muscle toning.
DonnaG
donnaslifestyle.blogspot.com
I think the major fault with CFE isn't with their training plan, it is with their communication of it.
ReplyDeleteI bet it is a much better choice for someone that is just trying to get off the couch and FINISH a marathon. Likely because it works a lot of other muscles and helps prevent overuse or imbalance-related injuries. The problem is that if you are already a runner or other athlete, CFE will help you reduce your training hours but not your time. You hit an instant plateau.
So if you are a runner who has a new job or baby and can't train as much but still want to do marathons, CFE may be for you. As long as you aren't expecting much progress in your finishing times.
I just wrote a really long reply to this and then it wouldn't save it! Basically I know quite a few people who have training exclusively with CFE, some being CF coaches and some just people who do CF. The common thread seems to be they are all fit people and could probably finish a marathon without much training anyway. They were mostly able to finish marathons but I'm talking like the coaches did 4:30 races and the other people 6+ hours. The ones I know using it hate running and just do the CFE so they can get the shirt and finish. If you want a respectable time you have to put the shoes on and run. I used to do a lot of crossfit and you are right I never looked better... I also did a 5:20 marathon that year and this year a 4:05 with zero crossfit and lots of running.
ReplyDeleteOh and also I'm not sure the paleo (which many of them follow) diet is really conducive to long distance sports unless you plan your meals VERY carefully. I trained with a girl on paleo and she died at mile 12 everytime. I told her to eat some brown rice the night before we ran or don't come.
ReplyDeleteNow, I'm no expert, but I do have a degree in exercise phys and nobody can change my mind when it comes to the principles of specificity. Muscular strength, muscular endurance, flexibility and cardiovascular are developed in different ways. All work well together but you can't develop muscular strength by running a marathon and you can't run a marathon by weight training (or in this case, cross fit). It's simple science. As I began to read your post, the first thing I thought of was, let's see the marathon times for the people who are doing CF to train for a marathon. Physiologically, it doesn't add up.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I would love to participate in CF workouts but I am a little afraid of getting injured and not being able to do the thing that I most love and that is swim/bike/run. I'll stick to my boring weight training routines here at home that are safe and sound.
I don't know.... but
ReplyDeleteI did read this book one time on how to train for an Ironman on one hour per day..
I wonder how much crossfit the Kenyans are doing?
ReplyDeleteHonestly I dont know anything about these pre-packaged neatly marketed workout schemes. All I know is I actually like running and biking that last 25% as well as going to the gym.
And lastly snobbery of any kind is something i want nothing to do with.
When I saw the title of this post I thought "Oh boy, here we go!". I've found that CF fans tend to be a bit upset when you question "their ways". I've considered signing up for CF and visited their local gym, but I just couldn't match what they were doing with my endurance goals. I'm a firm believer in "you have to put in the miles". Strength training will always be important to endurance athletes, but as a total percentage of time, "CF type" work should be small. I've enjoyed reading the comments and I'm glad they have been balanced and thoughtful.
ReplyDeleteI read that article too. I dont buy it but mostly I wonder: if you don't want to run that bad that you need an avoidance workout, why bother???? I run because I love it. Why would I substitute something else???
ReplyDeleteI agree the claim is BS though the program is probably good for cardio and strength and surely better than sitting on the couch.
ReplyDeleteGreat post and I couldn't agree more. CF has it's benefits for sure but it is not something that can replace sport specific training. People will always search for a "short-cut" when it comes to hard work but it's the hard work that will pay off in the end.
ReplyDeleteThanks. I thought the runners world article was a bit ridiculous but never could have expressed myself as well as you or all of your commenters have. Info believe on strength training but I know I simply need to run bike and swim more. And there's no way that article provides enough for an endurance athlete. Tho if followed, I'd have more time on my hands. Good review tho!
ReplyDeleteApart from CF, there seems to be a lot of authors pushing interval rather than endurance training. I think lean more towards the FIRST program, where you run MUCH lower duration, but MUCH higher speed/intensity in order to get faster. I can see how the old go slow to get fast might be eventually discredited.
ReplyDeleteCould a program like that be beneficial, sure. If one simply wants to finish a marathon they could probably go either way. If one wants to excel and have fast times, nothing will replace the physical and psychology demands on your body that you will experience come race day like long runs wills. Also, during long runs one can work on their hydration/nutrition plan.
ReplyDeletePS I cam up from behind on a guy dressed head to toe in Cross Fit cycling kit today. I dusted him in your honor...
ReplyDeleteI don't know enough about CF but I am a believer in the Church of Specificity (+1 JohnP). I'm not saying that there isn't a role for it as part of a training plan but not at the expense of specific training.
ReplyDeleteWonder what would happen if Tebow endorsed some training regimen?
A few friends and my boyfriend did a crossfit endurance WOD to test out the program as a promotional deal with our tri club. The guys at the gym expected them to fail miserably, but they ended up beating all/most of the crossfit guys. I think it is a great program, but it isn't an endurance athlete program. I think there is an article on trifuel that says that you can do both to get stronger, but you won't be able to use the level of weight or have the weight improvements crossfit expects. It also said that you may have increased fatigue which causes your endurance workouts to suffer
ReplyDeleteThe problem I have with CrossFit is that it seems to be so geared toward finishing FAST so form gets ignored and injuries happen. We had someone who was a CF junkie join my core training class and they couldn't even make it through our training as they were doing everything wrong.
ReplyDeleteI think CF is a good tool but NOT a substitute.
I read that article once, but looked at the pictures many many many times! (of the girl, not the dude)
ReplyDeleteI have taken 2 things from this post. And I want to thank you in advance for this.
ReplyDelete#1 - Re-order my snake oil supplies... they are running low.
#2 - Open a CF in Kenya. Obviously I can capitalize off of this because the damn Kenyans have obviously been doing something wrong by running carrying goats or bags of rice on their shoulders all this time.
Thank you for my newest career endeavor. Heather will be more than thrilled w/ this move.
I've been doing crossfit and cf endurance for little while now. In a past life, I was a competitive cyclist but got out of that and began doing crossfit maybe 3 or 4 years ago. I do cf because I like it - not because I think it will make me a better endurance athlete.
ReplyDeleteThat said, this past weekend I ran my first marathon (my second ever running race) and finished under 3:00. I was happy, I probably could've done better if I only trained for running, but who knows, maybe I would've gotten injured or burned-out. I haven't had a injury in four years, at least not one related to a cf workout. The day after I finished the marathon, I was out mountain biking with some friends and we went bouldering in the evening. I feel great, no soreness whatsoever. When I was only a runner or cyclist, I felt like a ligament or tendon was about to snap or break at any moment.
I agree there's a lot of BS and bravado in the crossfit world, maybe cfe is worse in that regard. Still, cf is not all bro-dudes and board shorts, there're a lot of cool people at my gym, and I really enjoyed their company. I like doing it, I don't really care about anything else.
I do wish CF and CFE would drop some of the marketing BS though, I agree it's hard to take them seriously when they make such stupid, obviously false claims. For that reason I tend to NOT discuss cf with my running and cycling friends.
Is it for everyone? Is it going to produce the next world champion? Certainly not (despite what the d!ckhead creator might say). But I can confidently say that I'm in better all-around shape than ever before. I'm not as fast as when I was only a cyclist, but it allows me to ski, climb, run, bike, surf and do all the other things I love at 85-90% proficiency. This summer I'm doing a 24 hour mtb race and a 100 mile mtb race, I'll probably do more longer rides, but I'm going to keep doing a few cf workouts each week, just because I like doing them.
Just my 2 cents-
I am a bit disturbed that I cant get ripped up abs in 6mins. Now I will have to rethink my training plans for the year.
ReplyDeleteI believe CF is a good all over strength training program but I don't see how it could help a person become a long distance runner.
snake oil YES! the crossfit thing is one of my soapboxes, i couldn't agree more.
ReplyDeleteCross Fit gives you a ripped and awesome looking body. Now who can argue the benefit of that? Or specifically, the benefit of looking at a someone at the beach who has done cross fit successfully? (Wowie Zowie!) So it makes (him) a bit slower...at least they look great zooming by...and you can look just a bit longer too. Just sayin'.... ;)
ReplyDelete